or have no intention of following through.
Ok, heres the deal. I met a lady last saturday. asked her if she would like to go out sometime. she said yes, and gave me her phone #. I called her tuesday. asked her out for friday. she said sure. I told her I would call her back thursday to see if she got a baby sitter, and then we could make plans as to what we would do. she did not answer, and didnt call me back. i tried again friday after work. same thing.
so my question. Why cant these women just be straightforward and say "no", or "hey, I changed my mind" I realize that they dont want to hurt someones feelings. but why cant they realize that being straightforward is not hurtful. its a lot more "hurtful" to tell us yes, then blow us off. hell its no skin off my back if a woman says no to me. but it plain pisses me off when they do shit like that. Have any of you ladies ever done anything like that? if so. Why? Men. have you had it happen to you? what did you do if it did? has it made you more leary of asking other women out?
This has happened to me a few times, and it is getting old quick.
Ok, heres the deal. I met a lady last saturday. asked her if she would like to go out sometime. she said yes, and gave me her phone #. I called her tuesday. asked her out for friday. she said sure. I told her I would call her back thursday to see if she got a baby sitter, and then we could make plans as to what we would do. she did not answer, and didnt call me back. i tried again friday after work. same thing.
so my question. Why cant these women just be straightforward and say "no", or "hey, I changed my mind" I realize that they dont want to hurt someones feelings. but why cant they realize that being straightforward is not hurtful. its a lot more "hurtful" to tell us yes, then blow us off. hell its no skin off my back if a woman says no to me. but it plain pisses me off when they do shit like that. Have any of you ladies ever done anything like that? if so. Why? Men. have you had it happen to you? what did you do if it did? has it made you more leary of asking other women out?
This has happened to me a few times, and it is getting old quick.
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 12:41 AMFor the same reason men and women don't say "I am attracted to you because X" or "I like you because Y". Relations between the sexes in our society are inherently indirect and dishonest. That just saying "I like you because X" or "You excite because Y" scares men and women more than many other things which in a different culture and place might scare them indicates that something is amiss. This is the same reason people don't reveal themselves in even a non-sexual context. That's my explanation, but I have no solution. This quality of people in our society confounds and frustrates me too. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 12:51 AMAgain I think if this is your experience it has to do with the people you are around. Like Artemis if you keep finding the same behavior then you are choosing people who will exibit it for you.
what you describe is not what I see in the people close to me, or how I work. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 1:42 AMyes. I picking "nice" girls. but i am most definitelyl not trying to. I do not have a psychic abilities to determine if a woman is going to be straight forward or not. god I wish I did. would make things so much easier. and obviously it doesnt happen all the time. I do get the straightforward "no". and I do get the ones who say yes. and actually follow through on it.
and trained by who to be nice? their parents? why would anyone want to train their daughters to be liars? -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 1:50 AM"I picking "nice" girls. but i am most definitelyl not trying to."
Can't really see a reason to pick people who aren't nice. Try picking people based on whatever criteria you figure and if they lie to you, figure that this is really quite good -- because then you won't waste any more time on 'em.
"I do get the straightforward "no". and I do get the ones who say yes. and actually follow through on it."
Hooray for the former and have fun dating the latter. Thank them for being straight-up with you and at least that leaves a good taste in their mouths.
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 10:50 AMI think we are drawn to certain kinds of people. So even if you don't know it if it's a pattern then I think you do have a pyschic ability to determine if a women will be straight forward or not...or maybe it's that you like things that you don't conciously connect with the "nice" thing but are hints to it. At least to that extreme kind of example.
Trained by parents, society. This is what drives me nuts about the nice thing. It is pushed and valued often over honestly. Telling people what they think they want to hear is big in our culture. Telling someone they look great when you don't really think so, telling someone you want to hang out with them when you don't. Saying you have something else you have to do instead of saying no thank you, or at least that you will get back to them.
I think the more extreme avoidance happens with people who are really afraid to be "mean" or hurt anyone's feelings. Because we create what we fear. They are so afraid of hurting people's feelings they actually do it more than a simple no thank you would have. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 2:22 PMWe have corresponded. I am very honest; I hope you sensed that.
I didn't explore in a way that would have revealed honesty or dishonesty in those who I was drawn to. I speak from my observations of people as a crowd, as a group. It is more general observation. For example, last night my friend Adrian proposed going to a bar after we had seen Anoushka Shankar perform. Once upon a time, I found bars to be very interesting places full of opportunities. This interest lessened over time as I observed more closely how people tend to act in bars, from the ones I wen to. Last night I entered the bar we went to with the beauty of Anoushka's music coursing through my veins and everything I saw was beautiful. I had a single martini. I made no proposals, none were offered to me. As the effect of the single martini I drank became more potent, as my *martini* goggles became stronger while observing behavior in this place, I saw less and less beauty there. I did not seek to see beauty nor ugliness. I was just there, drinking a martini with my friend, and I saw. I regret that I went there, and I realized I no longer enjoy the experience of being *intoxicated* like I once did. It can separate me from myself and those around me. I enjoy clarity much better now. When I returned home, my young cat Meka greeted me at the door. Suddenly, I saw beauty again. She is so beautiful because even when she annoys me or manipulates me, it is purely her nature and there is no dishonesty in it. By being a cat, she cannot be dishonest. She needs, she acts out of need. Very simple. Very direct. Very honest. I like cats very much, and now I like them better :)
Let me pose two questions to you. Why do you keep questioning what I say in the way you have done? Why won't you accept my answers for what they are? -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 10:16 PMwhat question did I ask?
I accept what you say for you...and I share what I think also. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 1:54 AMThis does not sound like *acceptance* to me :)
Consider this: if I explain myself ten times in different ways, how many times must the same question be asked in different ways?
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 2:51 AMLet me rephrase: if I explain myself ten times in different ways, how many times must what I say be questioned in different ways? -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 11:57 AMto me, if someone explains themselves in ten different ways and are still not understood, then either they have not yet put together the string of words that will get their point across, or they may be confused about what they are trying to say.
communication is a two-way thing, but the listener can only work with the other person's words, and with the clarification they find by asking questions. and, of course, in a tribe like this, often questions are meant to trigger more questions, which can trigger a deeper understanding.
so to me, if someone explains themselves in ten different ways, i might have a question about each way, and i might also want to ask them to consider why they had to say something ten ways, or how they could communicate without having to say things ten different ways to be understood.
direct may not be as lyrical, but it sure as hell ends up with getting the message across clearly. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Tue, April 3, 2007 - 4:27 AMLeslie: I've reached my level of ability and patience to explain, my shortcoming. At some point what is said is what is said. Putting myself in the place of the listener, I would become frustrated enough — believing the explainer was unable to articulate themselves or dishonest in doing so — that I would forgo further questions. But that's me...
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Tue, April 3, 2007 - 1:01 PMI looked back at my post before I asked how I had questioned you. That particular question still stands.
Do you believe that if I have a different view on something that it inherently questions your view?
as for how many times must what you say be questioned...well until it's understood of course. unless you desire to say that you don't wish to participate in it being understood that is always your right. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Tue, April 3, 2007 - 4:19 PMI felt like I had explained why I believed something, not that it is necessarily true or untrue, just something I have come to believe from my personal experience. I felt like I replied with honesty and as fully as I could. When the experience—nature of my belief, valid just by the fact that I have lived it and the honest mindfulness of how it led to a belief was questioned further, it felt invalidating because for me there was nothing more I could say. It seemed to question something that shouldn't be questioned and there is no way of answering. Feelings can be over-analyzed so that the power of the feeling and the experience is lost. The thing to me was my unique experience leading to my belief. The belief is just a belief. The experience is something totally different.
For example, if you shared something special about your history, your story, and someone questioned the story saying it didn't happen that way, asking you to explain the validity of the experience behind the story, how would you feel? Questioning belief is one thing, questioning experience is very different (at least to me).
I hope it didn't seem like I was angry at you; I was frustrated. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Tue, April 3, 2007 - 5:49 PMyou said "It is my observation" ...then I shared my thoughts/observations...and then you wanted to know why I questioned you. I'm confused by this reaction it's true my view is different from what you expressed...but I wasn't arguing your experience/observation/opinion I was stating my own. That has been sort of how I thought of this tribe, as a place where we express our views and learn from expressing it and from what others express.
you didn't seem angry, but I did wonder if you were taking things personally. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Tue, April 3, 2007 - 6:03 PMMy mind is mush. I took it personally in that it frustrated me, not that you meant to affect me in a personal way. The details now elude me. Maybe I am not for this tribe. For me there is a huge distinction between feeling, experience and belief. I felt like the experience of Artemis and myself was being questioned, not the belief. For me, some things are for analysis, while others lose something in deconstruction. It's difficult for me to explain the specific nature of these boundaries. I know it when it doesn't feel right to me, and I say me. I can give no better explanation.
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 2:10 AMI have chosen no one. This is my observation from my experience and what I have seen in the media. Just because you find something doesn't mean you chose it. Our experiences are different. I congratulate you that you have been around more honesty and directness than I.
I do not seek this out. I do not choose it. It is my observation. And perhaps Artemis did not seek it out either. Perhaps he is communicating honest observation. None of us are responsible for others, only ourselves. We can see dishonestly AND we can observe honestly.
I do not feel dishonest, and I did not sense dishonesty in what Artemis wrote. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 10:57 AMwe are not responsible for others. But I do believe that we find and draw to us people so that we can learn lessons by the patterns we set up. That is one way we are responsible for our experiences of others.
I never said that he was choosing dishonest people because he was dishonest, or that you were seeing dishonestly because you were dishonest...I am not even sure where you got that impression.
I think some of it too is seeing what we expect to see.
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 12:49 AMbecause they are trying to be nice...
because they are trained to be nice, that saying no is rude. That being truthful is not a priority.
but I think if this keeps happening to you, that it means you are picking "nice girls" as opposed to straight forward women.
I have never agreed to a date or anything else and then avoided the phone. I would never agree to a date if I didn't want to go.
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 12:59 AM"Men. have you had it happen to you? what did you do if it did? has it made you more leary of asking other women out?"
It's happened to me. Those people lied to me. It was inconvenient to me at the time and it hurt my feelings, but if they feel the need to lie, then I don't need to date them ANYWAY. 8)
It's like they're self-filtering away from me. And I'm cool with that.
Same goes for people who actually give you a phone number, but it's the wrong phone number. They are lying.
I like dating people who say "sure, yeah, let's get together," and then they meet me at the proscribed time and place (or offer a reasonable excuse why they missed it -- I am usually VERY forgiving). Those others? (shrug) Who's gonna miss 'em? Not me.
And once it's not my problem anymore, then it usually remains not my problem! 8)
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 12:07 PMthis is in no way something that only women do -- so once again, we have to make sure that we don't make something mean more than it really does...
some people are chickenshit. some people are bad planners. some people don't think that other people are serious when they ask them out. some people get distracted and what sounded like a good idea on saturday has been replaced by some other good idea. some people have emergencies come up and forget to follow through with cancelling other plans. some people have second thoughts about whether they really want to start dating someone new or not. some people have no integrity and think it doesn't matter if they do what they said. some people are chickenshit.. oh, have i looped back to the beginning again? ;^)
my point is that wondering why doesn't solve anything, because there are too many possible choices.
and this isn't just about women, nor about dating. i have had men do the same thing to me. i have had social acquiantances where it wasn't about dating do the same thing. lame.
though i also worried and wondered and tried to decipher their behavior, what i learned is that easiest thing to do is remind myself that someone who can't even make a frickin' date and return a frickin' phone call is NOT material for someone i'd want to have in my life, because that shit drives me nuts. and learning it sooner is way less painful and confusing than figuring it out later. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 12:46 PMI have learned the same thing leslie -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 11:46 AMok, then, since this is the impeccable honesty tribe (i probably would let it drop if it were a different tribe...) but if you have learned the same thing, then why did you post this question? like really, if you dig deep down, and you already know that different people flake for different reasons... why did you ask this question as if it were a mystery?
and to take it further, if you already know it's not about gender, then why post it as if it were a women vs. men issue?
i don't want to pick on you, but it seems that if you ask a question, and then say you already knew the answer, there is another underlying reason for asking the question, no? and there could be gold if you dig there, i think. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Tue, April 3, 2007 - 11:54 PMLeslie, i should have been more specific.
"what i learned is that easiest thing to do is remind myself that someone who can't even make a frickin' date and return a frickin' phone call is NOT material for someone i'd want to have in my life, because that shit drives me nuts. and learning it sooner is way less painful and confusing than figuring it out later."
I was referring to that part. I wouldnt post a question like this if I already knew the answer. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Wed, April 4, 2007 - 10:53 AMgot it, and thanks.
so does that mean that you still hold that it's a gender issue? that women have a different way of saying yes and meaning no than men do? i think that the gender is not really material in this kind of thing, but that pretending is a human behavior.
and i definitely think it's easier to learn to just write off people (of whatever gender) who don't do what they say they will as early as possible. life is soooooooooooo much better when those people can't gain a foothold on our time. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Wed, April 4, 2007 - 11:06 PMoops, sorry again Leslie. I totally forgot that part. my memory is slipping.
I did not mean is as a gender issue. I am sure there are plenty of men who do the same thing. but you see, I have never asked a man out. so I have no comparison. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Fri, April 6, 2007 - 11:22 PMhave you never asked a guy to do something with you, and had them say yes but not follow through?
i think that in fact this stuff happens to us all the time, we just don't load the heavy meaning into it until it's a "dating" situation, rather than just trying to go do something with a friend.
but i know that i have initiated some kind of social contact with many people of both sexes over the years, and have had people say yes and follow through sometimes, and had them say yes and be flakes sometimes. i really do think it's just a human thing. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sat, April 7, 2007 - 2:20 AM"have you never asked a guy to do something with you, and had them say yes but not follow through?"
only one time with my male friends, when we have made plans to do something, has one of them not been able to follow through. But he did call several hours before our tee off to say he wasnt going to be able to make it.
"but i know that i have initiated some kind of social contact with many people of both sexes over the years, and have had people say yes and follow through sometimes, and had them say yes and be flakes sometimes. i really do think it's just a human thing."
Maybe for some humans. but not for me. if i make plans with someone, no matter who it is. or what it is for. you can bet your last dollar that I am going to do it. and if for some reason I cant, its going to be for a very good reason. and i will always try to let the other person know beforehand. and if i cant do that beforehand. it would be because something came up at the last possible moment. which has only happened to me one time. and that was the day that my father passed away. that is the way I was raised. a man or woman is only as good as their word. and I have been damn lucky to have found friends who feel the same way. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sat, April 7, 2007 - 8:06 PMwhen i say it's a human thing, i mean it's not tied to one gender or the other, not that every human does it.
and i totally agree, i also have found friends who i can count on to do what they say they will. and when i meet people who don't do what they say they will, then it's perfectly ok with me if they show their flakiness early. it saves me a lot of hassle in the long run. ;^) -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Sat, April 7, 2007 - 8:17 PMyes, it is good when they show it early on. I dont like wasting my time.
but i will always wonder why they do shit like that.
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 10:24 AMI think the thread that Blair started, and the one that inspired him to start it, are also relevant to this discussion:
impeccablehonesty.tribe.net/thre...54542
I do wish people, myself included, had more guts to be real. We are chickenshit, all of us, on different levels.
People lie or evade the truth because the are ashamed of the truth or lack the courage to face the truth.
I can't resist offering a little advice, or at least posing a question to you, Artemis: What do you think would happen if you asked a woman out and told her up front that you wouldn't think less of her for being clear about her intentions or lack thereof, that, in fact, you'd respect a clear "no thanks" or "I'm really not sure" much more than evasive and unclear responses? I'm not sure that it woudl make a difference to her behaviour (given that "she" in this case is purely hypothetical), but it may just help you stand more squarely in your own space. So that even if she can't handle it, you know you've been true to who YOU are.
I admire your disire for authenticity.
:-)
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 10:41 AM"Artemis: What do you think would happen if you asked a woman out and told her up front that you wouldn't think less of her for being clear about her intentions or lack thereof, that, in fact, you'd respect a clear "no thanks" or "I'm really not sure" much more than evasive and unclear responses?"
Heh. On those rare occasions when I've asked someone out on a date, I've simply mentioned "It's okay to say 'no'," Five words that are surprisingly easy to say without invoking too much baggage.
That way, if they say 'yes' and they still stand me up, then I just don't have to waste any sympathy on them. 8) -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 10:53 AMThank you Edward, I was having trouble being concise. It's about giving her permission to reject you, essentially, isn't it? Saying you are strong enough to take it and asking her to give you that dignity. And yes, giving you permission to not waste energy on her if she can't handle it. :) -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Tue, April 3, 2007 - 12:21 AM"It's about giving her permission to reject you, essentially, isn't it?"
No, just letting the other person know that it's okay to say 'no'. Nothing personal.
I do a lot of work with volunteers and I tell them all the same thing. Many say no. Can't take it personal.
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 11:48 AMabsolutely, adding in the words "it's ok to say no" can make a big difference in any request.... because so many people live their life as if they are never allowed to decline a request.
i also tell someone new that they can count on me to be punctual, and that i hope i can count on them for the same. putting it out there can make a big difference in what you get back. -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Wed, April 4, 2007 - 9:02 AM<<it's ok to say no" can make a big difference in any request>>
My brain is fried this morning. I just imagined saying:
"Have a great day. It's okay to say no". I wonder what kind of responses you'd get?
But this IS a great discussion. How liberating for everybody to honestly be able to say "It is okay to say no".
And it isn't all about rejection. That's a really mature place to be. Because somebody doesn't want to go on that date, or have a nice day, it doesn't have to diminish oneself, does it? I said "all about" intentionally because I don't think we can hear "no" without some self doubt creeping into our minds. Offering that "out", however, probably let's you be in a better place to accept "no".
And having offered it, accepting it graciously is critical.
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Wed, April 4, 2007 - 9:44 AM""Have a great day. It's okay to say no". I wonder what kind of responses you'd get?"
Yep, there's a fun bit by (I think) George Carlin about that.
HOW I tell people "It's okay to say no," really depends on the circumstances. When asking someone out, I am fairly lighthearted about it. When asking people to strip and cover themselves in gore so we can film a torture scene, I take them aside privately and make sure they acknowledge they can say no without undue influence by peer pressure or misguided desires to please me beyond their comfort level.
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Wed, April 4, 2007 - 12:00 AM"What do you think would happen if you asked a woman out and told her up front that you wouldn't think less of her for being clear about her intentions or lack thereof, that, in fact, you'd respect a clear "no thanks" or "I'm really not sure" much more than evasive and unclear responses?"
frankly, its because it has never crossed my mind to do that. thanks for the idea.
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Tue, April 3, 2007 - 10:34 PMI sometimes say "yes" when I really mean "no" and in this situations I have learned to stop saying "yes" because I always get the small penises(literally)!!!! =-O -
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Re: women who say yes, but mean no
Wed, April 4, 2007 - 12:02 AMJackie, why do you say yes when you really want to say no?
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