I've been reading a bit about Taoism. As I was reading some of Tao The Watercourse Way I got to thinking about what it said about how western culture and religions have the focus and goal(or stated goal anyway) of defeating darkness, or having good triumph over bad that kind of thing. But the whole concept of the yin and yang is that you can not have one without the other, that the goal is balance of the two not to try to get rid of one...which is ridiculous if you need one for the other.(the preceeding possibly badly paraphrased by me) A passage mentioned from Lao-tzu (the author of The Tao Te Ching...well there is debate about if he was one guy...and what his name was ect) says
"When everyone knows beauty as beautiful, there is already ugliness;
when everyone knows good as goodness, there is already evil;
"to be" and "not to be" arise mututally;
Difficult and easy are mututally realized;
Long and short are mutually contrasted;
High and low are mutually posited;...
Before and after are in mutual sequence."
and that makes sense to me. Doesn't seem very shockin or amazing just simply makes sense.
So I wondered how most people viewed darkness and light, good and evil ect...and how those views were shaped or have changed over your life.
"When everyone knows beauty as beautiful, there is already ugliness;
when everyone knows good as goodness, there is already evil;
"to be" and "not to be" arise mututally;
Difficult and easy are mututally realized;
Long and short are mutually contrasted;
High and low are mutually posited;...
Before and after are in mutual sequence."
and that makes sense to me. Doesn't seem very shockin or amazing just simply makes sense.
So I wondered how most people viewed darkness and light, good and evil ect...and how those views were shaped or have changed over your life.
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Re: yin~yang
Sat, September 2, 2006 - 12:04 AMdarkness is just the absence of light. so maybe evil is the absence of good. can there be good without evil? certainly not in this world. i mostly view good and evil as black and white. my views of good and evil were mostly shaped by christianity. I have gotten away from some of my early christian beliefs. There always needs to be a balance of some kind. so i can see why Taoism says you need evil to have good. -
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Re: yin~yang
Sat, September 2, 2006 - 11:22 AMthe impression I get is that it is less that you need to have one to have the other..but that you simply do have them both. That they are two sides of the same coin...all one thing. -
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Re: yin~yang
Tue, September 12, 2006 - 3:54 PM"That they are two sides of the same coin...all one thing."
i totally believe this. when you change perspectives the concepts of evil and good change, right and wrong change.
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Re: yin~yang
Mon, September 4, 2006 - 5:18 PMI think about how you wouldn't know good if there weren't evil, otherwise, if everything were always good then how would we know it was good? If everyone were always happy, then how would we know it was happy, without sad to contrast it?
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Re: yin~yang
Wed, September 6, 2006 - 12:17 PM"Have you said yes to even a single joy? Then, O my friends, you have said yes, also, to all woe."
~ Nietszche
I'm going from memory there, and may not have it exactly right, but that's the gist of it. I came across that idea at an early age and it always seemed reasonable to me, if a bit pessimistic.
My take on the good/evil question is that , yeah, we realize that pain and suffering are a part of life and it is not possible to eradicate it, but still you do what you can to allay suffering (or at least try not to compound it) and add to joy. -
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Re: yin~yang
Wed, September 6, 2006 - 3:10 PMI won't say that we never need to do things that are direct attacks on but I think if the idea is to keep things in balance...then we will be far more successful as it seems that focusing all of our might against "evil" is exactly what makes it. How many of the horrors of history and individuals have come about becuase someone decided to get rid of evil? First someone decides that all whatever people are evil...then they do terrible things to them and then other people do more terrible things to stop them. Not that I think it's wrong to try to stop them, but how often do we stop tradgedies and how often do we create more? and how often is the fight less about a universal "right" and more about opinions and different sides?
I would say that hitler was evil, and he needed to be stopped...and I am not sure of any other way to do it once it got to that point. It needed to be earlier. I don't have any answers really. Just thoughts that run around in my head and questions that want to be asked.
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Unsu...
Re: yin~yang
Wed, September 6, 2006 - 1:43 PMOn a personal level, I like this story:
THE TWO WOLVES
One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people.
He said, "My son, the battle is between 2 wolves.
One is Evil. It is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
The other is Good. It is love joy, peace, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf wins?"
The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed." -
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Re: yin~yang
Wed, September 6, 2006 - 11:40 PMCan you blow the line away?
Merge
To experience this world
You have acquired a body
Through this body
You can experience the
Essential nature of this
Illusion called physicality
Ah! Life in duality
Up
Down
Female (not male)
Male (not female)
Do you require more examples?
However,
The real question
— IS —
Can you be comfortable (doubtful!)
Can you keep in your skin (barely!)
When you realize that
To become the whole
You must become the merge
Allow yourself to become
The union of extremes
How extreme can you be?
Will you even dare?
To touch this line
Or will you jump in
And blown the line away
Between
The not you
And you
What will you feel when
You let all the opposing forces
Do the holy rock and roll
Down deep in your soul
Just like a big ‘ol car battery
The sparks fly and the juice flows
When the universal “plus”
And the great cosmic “minus“
Merge inside you
Can ‘ya dig it? -
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Re: yin~yang
Thu, September 7, 2006 - 3:25 PM"...Can ‘ya dig it? "
----->
Sure. I'm sitting here snapping my fingers, beatnik style.
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Re: yin~yang
Fri, September 8, 2006 - 1:57 AMHmmm, pretty simple for me. Darkness is the absense of light, evil is the absense of good. -
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Re: yin~yang
Fri, September 8, 2006 - 9:54 AMbut can you have one without the other? -
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Re: yin~yang
Wed, September 13, 2006 - 3:18 AMI don't think so....wait, the absence of one is the presence of the other (no light, dark, right?? stressed, thinker broke). -
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Re: yin~yang
Thu, September 14, 2006 - 10:20 AMHey, - evil spelled backwards, - eh?
;-)
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Re: yin~yang
Mon, December 17, 2007 - 8:04 AM
There is no doubt true evil exist
in the world today but it may
not be what we think or
rather more to the point, perhaps
it is precisely the very nature of
our unquestioned thought processes
which tend to do the most harm
in this world of the mundane…
Everyone it seems has this
prepackaged ideal of what it means
to be enlightened, perhaps it is
very much as Caroline Myss
has discribed it, as “Spiritual Madness”
which is most certainly not a matter
of what we ordinarily might think
but more to the point of what
some have termed 'spiritual emergency'.
In Taoist traditions initial awakening
is merely a first but none-the-less
essential step in the develpmental
process. Where as in typical
western bastardized traditions
the ultimate goal appears to be
either one of two things that now
in many cases would almost appear
to be inseparable in so many minds
as simply the way things are. Either
you seek this so called enlightened
state of being as an end unto itself
as if it alone would solve all of your
earthly problems like some kind
of mythical holy grail - the stuff
that western legends and wars
are made of, or rather there are
those who would presume to go
directly to the source of eternity
and become minor Gods them-
selves - legends in thier own
minds not unlike this cult of ego
so prevalent around Holly Wood
this days with the ever sacred
red string around the wrist
as a sign of assension - direct
to the source.
But in this melding of east meets
west somethings gets lost or go
missing and the saintly image of
actual humility tends to go down
the drain.
I Know that this is a bit off topic
the Tao as it is said, gives
birth to infinite worlds
always present within you
but if you would seek to
grasp it you would fail
you cann't know it but
you can be it at peace
in your life.
Do we understand how
the small is large or
how emptiness seeks
fulfillment. The process
of awakening is no great
mystery, what is rare
is to live it free within
the mundane.
“In spiritual alchemy, before primordial true yang has been restored,
one should empty the mind to seek to fill the belly. Once primordial
true yang has returned, one should fill the belly and also empty the
mind. The achievement of emptying the mind is the means to operate
the true fire, to burn away the mundane energy of acquired conditioning
until one is freed from it.”
Taoist I Ching
Perhaps it is just that simple.
But do we know the firing
process of triplex unity or the
opening that is known to some
as the mysterious female -
this opening within the
conjunction of yin and yang?
“The mysterious pass is a most recondite and abstuse pass-
ageway. It is also called the door of life and death, the
chamber of vivifing and killing, the border of divinity and
humanity, the gate of punishment and reward, the opening
of being and nonbeing, the lair of spirit and energy, the
ground of emptiness and fulfillment, the crossroads, and
many other names. All of these terms depict this one open-
ing. The mysterious pass is another name for the mysteri-
ous female. Because its recondite subtlety is unfathomable,
it is called the mysterious pass; because yin and yang are
herein, it is called the mysterious female. Really it is just
this one opening.
“The ignorant who do not know this sometimes take the
space below the heart and above the genitals to be the
mysterious pass; some consider the center of the umbilical
region to be the mysterious pass; some call the coccyx the
mysterious pass; some take the center of the spine, where
it joins the ribs, to be the mysterious pass. These are all
wrong. The mysterious pass has no fixed position; if it
had a fixed position, it would not be the mysterious pass.
“Ch'en Hsu-pai referred to the point where thought arises
as the mysteriouus pass; this seems to be correct, but really
is not. The point where thought arises already has fallen
into the realm of temporal form; how can it be considered
the mysterious pass?
“I now clearly point out to you that the mysterious pass
lies in subtle abstraction, where being and nonbeing in-
terpenetrate. Understanding Reality says, 'Seek the image
of being in the subtle; seek the true vitality in the recon-
dite. From this being and nonbeing interpenetrate; before
you have seen it, how can you imagine it?' Also the Four
Hundred Words on the Gold Elixir says, 'This opening is
not an ordinary aperture, made by Heaven and Earth to-
gether, it is called the lair of spirit and energy. Within
are the vitalities of Water and Fire,' These passages truly
point out the opening of the mysterious pass.
“However, there are few people in the world who are in
genuine earnest. Most cannot put forth intensive effort
or endure long perseverance; also they do not seek out
the fundamental true principles, but just think of the mys-
terious pass and mysterious female in terms of physical
locations and do some minor techniques which are at-
tached either to voidness or to form, falsely imagining
that they will attain the Tao thereby. This is pitiful.
“If one is a true stalwart, one can decisively set aside all
entanglements, so that all objects are empty, and concen-
trate on the matter of most urgent importance, call on
teachers, form associations with worthy companions,
never changing one's determination; then one can even-
tually come to know the mysterious pass, see the myster-
ious female, and finally comprehend essence and life.
Students should work on this.”
“The great Tao is uncontrived,
based on spontaneity;
But until the work is complete,
one cannot adapt with autonomy.”
“The Inner Teachings of Taoism”
Chang Po-tuan
Learn to die before you die, it is said. Yet to do so prematurely
would mean to become a nihilistic quietist of no use
to anyone let alone to essence or life.
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Re: yin~yang
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 2:43 AMLight/dark, this is about contrast. Neither can be better than the other unless there is a context to it. If I am looking for something I like it to be light. If I am trying to sleep I like it to be dark.
We gage the "distance" between things by the contrast, the Light/Dark contrast is a good example, but you can use anything.
Likewise, Good/Evil. Here the contrast is, again, highly subjective. We must remember that what we believe personally is not what everyone believes. What you think is "good" may very well be considered "evil" somewhere else.
These contrasts are judgements, and if we judge too harshly we will suffer from our narrowness. Perception is the difference between our anticipation of an event and the acctuality of it. Let yours be yours, and mine be mine.
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Re: yin~yang
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 9:02 PMEnglish writer Alan Moore once used the analogy of soil. Good, rich, black soil is made of decaying plant life; it's made of death. But from that foul morass springs glorious life. In a like fashion, when good decays into corruption, the humus which forms is Evil. But from the evil can come startling goodness!
It's a circular process; a closed system which is neverending.
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Re: yin~yang
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 12:30 PMoh, i love that, makin compost out of the garbage in my life. yeah.
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