When is it simply no one's business?

topic posted Thu, March 8, 2007 - 8:11 AM by  ♫KatieM♪
In another tribe I was bemoaning the fact that honesty had cost me greatly and I was grieving that loss. Sweet leslie, who I barely know, posted these words for me:

"karen, there is a transition period when you make any kinds of changes in your life, and when those changes mean shifting friendships or not having certain people in your life who you're used to, there is definitely a phase of grief or discomfort...

just like it takes months to gestate a baby, it takes time to gestate oneself in our true form. and living a lie is not living at all, really, is it? it's more like waiting for your chance to be real... and now that's what is ahead of you.

i believe with every atom in my body that being honest, being yourself, telling the truth, is the threshhold to an incredible life... and no, there is no point in having relationships based on lies and falsehoods. when all of the people in your life understand you, admire you, support you, and love you for who you are (and not who you are pretending to be), then you will not be able to help feeling grateful and powerful and real.

and you'll continue to grow, because you will have created the right environment for that. it just gets better and better and better when you are more real and have people around you who appreciate the real you."

Thank you again, leslie, so much, for sharing your wisdom. You are so right, in so many ways.

So my question is this: how <<real>> do we really need to be to be authentic? Does everyone in my life NEED to know that I love two people? That I share beds with two guys? That I fell in love with someone when I was already in love with someone else, and have spent the last two years trying to keep it all together in that context, and watched many things fall apart in spite of all my best efforts?

At what point does wearing your heart on your sleeve become TMI for the whole world? Where is the balance between being real and authentic and it just being no one else's business????
posted by:
♫KatieM♪
Canada
  • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

    Thu, March 8, 2007 - 8:27 AM
    The difference is in whether you feel open about your emotions or ashamed. It is not a matter of whether anyone "needs" to know but about whether you hide it or simply let it come out through your daily existence of living.

    Sometimes authenticity is shouting it to the stars and the moon and everyone around you, other times it's simply just being true and talking about what is relevant to you without fear or worry about who knows or doesn't know what.

    As for love - there is no shame in loving fully and deeply. There is no shame in loving more than one person fully and deeply. There is no shame in others knowing this. If they judge you it is their judgement - not yours. Don't hide yourself because of other people's fears or ideas.

    Be real, be full, and be honest. Those around you will adjust themselves as they feel necessary and it is not about you - it is about them.
    • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

      Thu, March 8, 2007 - 1:00 PM
      Yep I think that's the key too. It isn't that everyone needs to know for you to be honest...but it is that you need to not be hiding things. Once you feel like you don't need to hide anything...then you can determine what is not someone else's business. Right now it seems like it's all mixed up together.

      though I do that too...I will give what might well beTMI if I feel myself feeling any inclination to hide anything. That is my check on myself to keep myself honest.
      • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

        Thu, March 8, 2007 - 2:05 PM
        You don't have to talk about something to be honest and authentic. Many things in my life I talk about. Many things in my life I don't talk about.

        I don't talk (generally speaking) about my sex life expect with very close friends (or in broad Tribe discussions - tehehehehe). But I'm not broadcasting it to my co-workers or neighbors or the barrista at the coffee shop. I'm just talking about what's relevant to me with those I want to.

        Back when I was in corporate america and I had a gf I lived with I talked about her a lot. I didn't talk about who else I dated or played with or the play parties we went to or I helped create! Once we broke up I stopped talking about any of the lovers in my life. I dated a woman for 4 months and none of my coworkers knew anything about it. One time one of my coworkers said "We don't really know much about you do we?" In my head I thought "If you did you'd probably not know how to talk to me." But what I said was "No, you don't" and left it at that. They didn't need details so I didn't share them - but if they'd asked me directly I might have answered honestly and directly.

        I didn't feel full in that context - but I felt authentic. I talked about what was relevant to me in that context. I talked about my house, my family, my job, and my commute. I didn't talk about my love life, my friends, or my activities outside of work. It wasn't relevant or beneficial for me.

        But what also didn't work for *me* was even working in that environment. Now I'm mostly self-employed and pretty darn open about nearly everything I do - that serves me now.

        Sometimes it's just a measure of context and how real and authentic you feel in the moment. I wouldn't have lied to my coworkers if they'd ever asked a direct quesiton - but they never did.
      • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

        Thu, March 8, 2007 - 2:19 PM
        Thank you SV, you're right, it's all mixed up right now. Thanks for helping me sort it all out.

        And you too Angel, your words are so soothing :) ...-- you're right -- there's no shame, but there IS shame and I think that's a big part of the problem. I've BEEN shamed. And I'm trying to recover from that. I'm not the only one, either.
        • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

          Thu, March 8, 2007 - 3:10 PM
          you are very welcome...maybe the place to start is in figuring out what you think of your life and loves...what judgements you have for them and yourself.

          tribe is exactly where you need to be btw(o: we'll poly-fi you in no time!
          • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

            Thu, March 8, 2007 - 3:44 PM
            You can only *be* shamed if you *have* shame. Once you let go of that no one will be able to harm you.

            Poly-fi her in no time??!! Hahaha...that's really funny since I'm being monogamous right now.:) I guess it's hard to undo 7 years of past experience and a couple hundred conversations about the subject though!!!
            • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

              Thu, March 8, 2007 - 4:00 PM
              (o: it doesn't matter if you are monogamous or poly in my experience tribe is a culture rich in the acceptance(or at least lots of discussion) of the choice to have all kinds of relationships...I think Poly-fi is a very cool term...I think I'll add it to my glossery of SVspeak I'm thinking of putting on my profile(o:
              • Poly-fi

                Fri, March 9, 2007 - 10:32 AM
                LOL - when I first heard this term is was an abbreviation of "polyfidelity".

                It does work as a verb too though.

                But if you do add it to your glossary of SVspeak, can you include both definitions? :)
                • Re: Poly-fi

                  Fri, March 9, 2007 - 2:20 PM
                  LOL sure(o:

                  give me a good definition of polyfidelity....someone? anyone?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Poly-fi

                    Fri, March 9, 2007 - 2:43 PM
                    "give me a good definition of polyfidelity....someone? anyone?"

                    Monogamous++
                    • Re: Poly-fi

                      Fri, March 9, 2007 - 3:02 PM
                      um...that seems unlikely with the root words so I did a search and this is what wiki had to say

                      "Polyfidelity, is a form of polyamorous group marriage wherein all members consider each other to be primary partners and agree to be sexual only with other members of this group."

                      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyfidelity
                      • Re: Poly-fi

                        Fri, March 9, 2007 - 4:08 PM
                        Oh sure, that's the long form.
                        • Re: Poly-fi

                          Fri, March 9, 2007 - 4:34 PM
                          really what I want is a personal or humorous form.
                          • Re: Poly-fi

                            Sat, March 10, 2007 - 3:36 PM
                            That's what I offered. Both, actually. Would it help if I explained the joke? It's a bit geekish.
                            • Re: Poly-fi

                              Sat, March 10, 2007 - 5:01 PM
                              sure go for it(o:
                              • Re: Poly-fi

                                Sun, March 11, 2007 - 1:10 AM
                                Most of the folks I've met who were all gung-ho about "polyfidelity" were groups of three and possessed practically all the same rules as people who insisted on only two. In the "C" computing language, incrementing a variable by 1 is done thus: VariableName++.

                                Thus, "monogamy++" is all the rules and restrictions imposed by the monogamy framework, but you increment the value by one.

                                Another goof/not-so-goof definition of "polyfidelity": people who want multiple partners, but don't want to be associated with THEM (for some value of "them").
                                • Re: Poly-fi

                                  Sun, March 11, 2007 - 7:48 PM
                                  Dammit, Edward, you are WAY too good. :)

                                  Is monogamy really all about rules and regulations? Is poly really all about lifting such rules? That's probably a discussion for a different thread or even a different tribe.

                                  And touche on the second definition. I am decidedly uncomfortable the whoel concept of poly -- I have an interesting post and discussion on my blog you can feel free to look at --- it's called "Living Poly, Being Poly"...

                                  As a result of much mental thrashing about, I finally wrote this down one day not too long ago:

                                  ~~~~~~~~~~

                                  Our Poly Is...

                                  A triad ("V") of happy, healthy, functional, intimate and interdependent relationships.
                                  The ability to form deep connections with more than one person of the opposite sex and have those connections enrich each other rather than compete against each other.
                                  The ability to form an intimate, romantic relationship even in the absence of sexual contact.
                                  The ability to choose to enjoy sexual intimacy with more than one partner in openness and trust.
                                  The ability to simultaneously love someone and support them in loving someone else.
                                  The ability to make choices and decisions for the good and for the health of the triad.
                                  The ability to overcome discomfort.
                                  The ability to trust each other to each carry our own weight in terms of personal growth.
                                  The ability to shift paradigms and become better lovers and human beings through shared experience.

                                  ~~~~~~~~~~

                                  Decidedly a work in progress, but a hell of a lot of work all the same.
                                  • Re: Poly-fi

                                    Sun, March 11, 2007 - 8:04 PM
                                    "Is monogamy really all about rules and regulations? Is poly really all about lifting such rules? That's probably a discussion for a different thread or even a different tribe."

                                    I thought enough about the topic that I DID start a thread about it on another tribe:

                                    polyamory.tribe.net/thread/b...fdc426135

                                    All relationships seem to have some sort of rules. The interesting nodes of power depend on why those rules exist and under what circumstances they are invoked.
                                    • Re: Poly-fi

                                      Mon, March 12, 2007 - 5:08 AM
                                      There will always be rules in any relationship. The question is more one of whether the rules make any sense for the people involved.

                                      I'm reminded of the example of architects and builders who build office buildings and put nice straight sidewalks from door to street. Inevitably, people will walk across the grass to get to the building. The smart builder puts no sidewalk initially, watches where the paths in the grass form, and then build the sidewalks to fit people's behaviour.

                                      I see mono/poly in a similar way: high rates of both divorce and affairs would seem to imply that the sidewalks in our life aren't really built to fit people's behaviour. Poly shifts the rules around, but there are still rules.

                                      Funny, I got the monogamy++ reference without really thinking about it. Shows what I do all day...
            • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

              Fri, March 9, 2007 - 10:34 AM
              <<You can only *be* shamed if you *have* shame. Once you let go of that no one will be able to harm you.>>

              Yeah, I get that. Totally. I'm getting there, I really am. But the road to recovery is long and rocky. Thanks for the affirmation, though, that I'm on the right track.
              • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

                Fri, March 9, 2007 - 10:49 AM
                "But the road to recovery is long and rocky."

                It sure can be.

                Would a visual effect help? Take a small envelope, mark it "shame" and keep it handy. Don't put anything in it. Remind yourself on occasion that you're just not accepting any shame today. No thanks.

                I know it sounds goofy, but these sorts of visualizations can be helpful.

                One I still use on occasion is to imagine shame as a pink mewling blind thing lying on the ground. Someone tossed it at me and it bounced off and it's lying there, dying, because I would not catch it. I feel pity for it, and I feel pity for the person who felt throwing it was their only option, but I will not pick it up. I will not attach its mouth to my throat. I watch it die there, starving. I wish it well in its next life. I try to be gentle with the person throwing it, because this was their last hope, their last attempt, and now they must feel powerless. They watched me watch it die -- their most "devastating" weapon, and I let it simply die on the ground in front of me.

                Gotta be a bit careful on the next move, of course. Walking away (at least figuratively) is often the wisest.
  • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

    Thu, March 8, 2007 - 9:49 AM
    "When is it simply no one's business?"

    Most of the time.

    It's taken me a long time to distill all that down to so few words, but they seem the most accurate.

    Most of the time, what I do is no one's business but mine (and the folks with whom I do it). Conversely, what other people do is usually none of MY business.

    Who I date, love, marry, fuck, shack up with, or reproduce with is no one's business, again, but mine and the folks who will be directly affected. Again, the converse is true.

    Sometimes people who are not involved object to that, but that's okay, because other people's opinions of me are (deep breath...) none of my business.

    That last one can be a real fucker if you're not careful. ;)
    • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

      Thu, March 8, 2007 - 2:03 PM
      <<That last one can be a real fucker if you're not careful. ;) >>

      Holy shit, Edward, you're not kidding... and you are SO right.

      Other people's opinions of me are not my business. Sounds like a mantra to repeat daily. :)

      Thank you. :-)
      • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

        Thu, March 8, 2007 - 3:39 PM
        Every once in a while someone asks me how I do all the radical and alternative things I do (yes there are many out there more radical than I) and I always find that question interesting. Because what they are really asking is "Why don't you feel shame?" or "What about all those people that have judgement of you or think poorly of you or think you're doing it wrong?"

        My answer is simple - "No offense...but I don't really care what you think."

        Everyone's opinion has value - but I don't have to agree with it or even let it affect me. I have (and undoubtedly will again) done things or made choices contrary to the asserted opinions of my friends and family and especially strangers when they thought I was making a mistake or just doing something they didn't like. Sometimes they were right. Sometimes they weren't. But I made the choice based on my best opinion and what I wanted with a view to what they were saying.

        In later years I've gotten a lot better about *listening* to what the opinions are and seeing what they are saying that I don't see. But that still doesn't mean I *have* to agree - or even care.

        And like Edward said - it's really none of my business anyway, your just choosing to tell me.
  • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

    Thu, March 8, 2007 - 12:20 PM
    Language is important to me. I don't talk about other people's stuff -- I might say something like "I heard someone say ..." and only in relationship to talking about my own stuff. A few people notice, and even when they notice they may only actually hear less than 10% about what I am concerned about.

    > when is it simply no one's busyness?
    when am I simply not another person who is trying to respond to someone else's Busyness?

    > how <<real>> do we really need to be to be authentic?
    How <<authentic>> do we authentically need to be to be real? impeccably, radically honest.

    > does everyone in my life NEED to know that I love two people?
    only everyone in my life? only two?

    > That I share beds with two guys?
    I am honestly sharing beds with two guys? Wow! Great for me! ;) I would keep that a secret except from the two guys who I would be radically honest with. (oops, I'm giving away secrets)

    > That I fell in love with someone when I was already in love with someone else?
    Did I fall? Do I love? I'm in and I love. I am out and I love. I fall and I love. I rise and I love. Love is not an object I fall into. Love is a verb. Sometimes, I love drama.

    > and have spent the last two years trying to keep it all together in that context?
    trying is lying? try to feed the dog and the dog dies?

    > and watched many things fall apart in spite of all my best efforts?
    trying in spite? In my best effort, I stop trying, I stop making an effort, I let go and fall apart.

    > At what point does wearing your heart on your sleeve become TMI for the whole world?
    Is the whole world (poor me) coming to the point of my wearing my heart on my sleeve? Tiny Me Information?

    > Where is the balance between being real and authentic and it just being no one else's business????
    Where is the balance between being radically honest and keeping secret the things of benefit only to me? The things that might hurt someone else hearing? The things that someone else probably doesn't need/want to know? Someone is listening to me?
    • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

      Thu, March 8, 2007 - 2:00 PM
      Okay, heart on my sleeve time.... are you mocking me, mmphosis? Or are you trying to tell me not to worry so much?

      I admit to being generally confused, hurting and healing, and feeling hypersensitive and uber-vulnerable as a result. So if I misterpret you, please forgive me. If you ARE mocking me, then it is I who must forgive you. :)

      Your answers tell me there are no real answers. I THINK I can buy that, but I'm not really looking for answers, just shared experience, strength and hope. Please.
      • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

        Thu, March 8, 2007 - 3:40 PM
        > are you mocking me, mmphosis?
        hmmm, perhaps. I am repeating your questions, in my own words. I think your questions are valid and the words we use are important -- and I am glad you are asking. And yes, I do like making fun. Forgive me.

        > Or are you trying to tell me not to worry so much?
        I am not trying. Trying doesn't work.
        And, I don't want to tell you to do (or sell you) anything. Yes, shared experience and enough strength and then some not to need hope. Thank you, I am grateful we are sharing.
        • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

          Thu, March 8, 2007 - 3:48 PM
          Yoda was a genius. "Try? There is no try. Do or do not."

          Definition of "try" - make an effort or attempt

          Try to feed the dog and he will starve.
          Try to stand up.
          Try not to feel shame.
          Try to love me.

          If you succeed at any of these things you haven't tried - you've *done*. Trying implies failure.
          • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

            Thu, March 8, 2007 - 3:57 PM
            Thanks for these things about trying, Angel Of Love. :-)

            > Trying implies failure.

            What are the definitions of "failure" and "success" ???

            Success is about moving
            to the _next_

            ?
            • Re: When is it simply no one's business?

              Thu, March 8, 2007 - 4:06 PM
              failure = an event that does not accomplish its intended purpose, lack of success
              success = an event that accomplishes its intended purpose, an attainment that is successful

              If you "try" to fail - will you? No - you can only really fail.
              If you "try" to succeed - will you? No - you can only really succeed.

              In either case you are "making a best effort - try" but the result is that you either suceed or fail and then the "try" is irrelevant. Try is only the beginning process but the result is about whether you "do or do not" and this is exactly the part you can control!